Life Profits

Ep 03 Life Profits - Mac Martine
Geoff Roberts: [00:00:00] This is a podcast about entrepreneurship, but rather than just celebrating entrepreneurs who make millions, we're celebrating entrepreneurs who use their businesses to lead interesting and enriched lives. Today, I'm going to talk to Mac Martín, an indie hacker who's living the dream. When I first met Mac, I knew that I had met something of a kindred spirit.
Over the last two years, he's lived with his family abroad in both Croatia and Spain while building two different software businesses. Let's hear from Mac. All right, Mac. So to kick things off, why don't we just start by, as I said, asking you sort of the regular intro question, but who are you? What are you working on from a business perspective?
What are you up to in life these days? Who are you is very deep, and I'm still working
Mac Martine: on that. First off, it's nice to see you, Jeff. I am. From the U S I grew up in Nashville, currently Portland, Oregon is where we have a home, I guess I call it home, uh, but we have been abroad for two years. So I'm just [00:01:00] sort of a, I don't know, I'm still not really sure what to call myself, you know, career wise, but sometimes entrepreneur, I don't, sometimes don't love that, but I have a small, I build software businesses.
And I have a wife and two boys and three and a half years ago, I had an exit. Yeah. And not, I mean, significant, but not, not like, I mean, you know, I still need to work. So, but you know, definitely helped. And then almost exactly two years ago, we moved abroad and we've been gone since then. We've been to 13 countries in the last two years, I believe, and just having a good time.
That's the gist, wife and two boys. The boys, they're 10 and 12 now, and we've been having a great time, particularly the last couple of years is what's on my mind. Cause it's been. Totally different than the rest of my life, just sort of living abroad and traveling a lot. And it's been amazing. And so I think we're here to talk about a lot of that.
Geoff Roberts: Absolutely. Don't sell yourself short. You're living the indie hackers dream. You've built a successful SAS product. That's enabled you [00:02:00] to do a lot and have a couple new products that you're working on right now. Why don't you tell us about the new ones in particular? What are the current areas of focus?
Mac Martine: You know, I, okay. So I have one called aware, which is a LinkedIn tool for engaging in custom feeds. I have a partner with it, Alex, who's in Portland and we kind of started this on the side a few years ago and it was not on the back burner, but like it wasn't really a priority for awhile as I was running my other business and he was running an agency and.
Overtime more recently in the past, like six months or so that started to do really well. And so we've both been putting more focus into that. And then for a while, really, since we came abroad and I had more time and space, I, and I was kind of starting over, like I had this business and I sold it. And I, I found myself at square one and I was just like, Oh, I don't know, what am I doing?
And so I kind of went down the path of, you know, starting a newsletter and building an audience and being on social media. And [00:03:00] just recently, like I do enjoy it. I mean, I met you doing that and made some great relationships, but I'm currently like pulling back a little bit on that and just, just throwing a lot of shit at the wall.
So I've gotten aware going that is probably 80 percent of my sort of work day. And then 20 percent now, I'm just. Kind of quick iterating. I hope that I found this balance of like being able to, you know, do, do it just the right amount of research, try something if it feels right, and then move on quickly and I'm talking like within a week or two per thing.
So. Yeah, that's kind of back to where I am. So as far as what I'm, what those are, they're probably not interesting yet to like it further. So I was still just trying to figure it out again, you know, and I, I think that's sort of from sort of the entrepreneurial view, anyone listening at, I've found that to be really interesting too, is some people think, Oh, you had an exit, like you have all the answers and it's certainly not true.
And sure. I've some, and I figured out my strengths and weaknesses, but it's still also back at square one. Absolutely. Luckily with the where it's started [00:04:00] to bring in. Some revenue that is starting to make a difference. So that's great, but it's still the same challenges all over again, but it's fun.
Geoff Roberts: So let's talk about your exit a little bit.
The product, the product was called cast in that is that. That's correct. Another LinkedIn tool. So that's a space that you clearly know. Well, let's talk about the exit happens. All of a sudden you've got a influx of cash like you've never had before. You've got time to think about and really consider sort of what comes next, both from a life perspective and a business perspective.
Bring me inside your head at that point in time. You know what? What became a priority? How did you think about sort of figuring out what you were going to invest your time into next? Any insights from having been in that place yourself?
Mac Martine: Yeah. So I'm going to give you an answer that you're not expecting and that is unfortunate and things that I can't go too deep into, but [00:05:00] around that time, I had a lot of personal challenges, things that came up that I have had to deal In a much better place now, I would say a significant portion of the two years after we're just looking deep into myself and my relationships and.
The people around me and my family and a lot of that. And so, you know, when my exit happened, it was exciting, but I also had things happening that kept it from being as exciting as I felt it should be. So in a weird way, well, I don't know, part of me is just very grateful that I had that exit in that ability to step back for a couple of years and I was doing things during that time, but.
Not the way I wanted to share. Yeah. I mean, I'm grateful that I had that time to just like have, have the pressure taken off a bit, but to handle the new pressures and the other pressures.
Geoff Roberts: Yeah. [00:06:00] That's a massive benefit in and of itself. Right. Just having the space to be able to have a little room to breathe during a time like that is huge.
Mac Martine: Yeah. So the exit was sold in February of 2021. And I think it was later that year. I want to say October or something. Well, we made a decision to move abroad. And so then, you know, our kids were in school and so we were going to wait till the end of the school year. And so it was June, 2022. Yeah, that we left.
And so I've had the freedom to be able to prioritize sort of myself and my family, my kids.
Geoff Roberts: Yeah. Where did that decision come from? Was it do things differently or was it like a lifelong dream of yours or?
Mac Martine: So my wife has lived abroad. We both love traveling and have traveled. I mean, not as many as a lot of you out there, but, you know, a bit, she had lived abroad previously, we had talked about it and tossed it out there, but it wasn't like this ongoing conversation.
And then, you [00:07:00] know, the exit helped, but also it was, you know, a little after COVID times and we were in Portland, Oregon, and I think a lot of places were struggling still, but particularly the West coast, parts of the West coast. And so with my kids, you know, there were like anxieties. There were just a lot of crazy stuff that was happening.
Like literally on our people coming up to our windows at our house. And someone tried to light our porch on fire and just like drugs and mental illness and crazy stuff happening. And so hopefully he doesn't mind me saying this, but when my kids started to have anxieties around going, going out, you know, going outside.
So all these other things coming up too. Right. So I think that contributed to it. It wasn't as simple as like this one thing, but I think that contributed to it and the ability to do it. And we were both working remotely and some freedom. And I think it was literally simple. One night my wife was like, Peyton, what if we go abroad for a year?
Sure. That's it. Change the scenery. Sounds nice right now. It was just as simple. Like, I'd be curious. [00:08:00] I should ask her like what her memory of it is, but it was, it was really that simple. Okay. That, that quick, as far as the
Geoff Roberts: decision, your first stop for, for year one was to grab Croatia.
Geoff and Mac: Yes.
Geoff Roberts: Tell me about even just like the process of getting a digital nomad visa.
Is that as bad as they say? How did you figure all that, all that out? And why Croatia?
Mac Martine: Yeah. So I'll start with why Croatia? And I asked my wife right before this, they went off to get some ramen before to get some Let me do this call. I was like, any big takeaways from this whole trip in like, like a brief, and she said, don't overthink it.
And that is how we have viewed this whole thing. It was, you know, the criteria for choosing Croatia was who has a digital nomad visa and there's a lot of them. And then what is like somewhere we haven't been, we intentionally wanted to go somewhere. We haven't been, we wanted to go somewhere that is central in a region that we wanted to explore, that we haven't explored as much as we wanted to.
Yeah. And then it was, uh, [00:09:00] I think there was a piece of like gravitating towards the coast. Zagreb is a couple hours from the coast. So it wasn't, but it was like close to Mediterranean, the most amazing ocean I've ever been in. And, and then it was just, can we find a school that we like? Cause one of the things for us was our plan was we're going to go for one year.
And of course, if we want to come back, come back, otherwise we'll keep going. Yeah. And so for that reason, we decided to splurge on an American school for the kids to make it easier for them. I think if we had said, Oh, we're going to go somewhere 10 years or five years, even put them in a local school. But so it was, can we find a school that we like and stuff like that?
And so we had it down to like three countries very quickly. And it was just like Croatia, I think, cause we found a school or something. Great. And it was really that like, we did not overthink it. And it was good as far as getting the nomad visa. So we've gotten one now in Croatia, we've gotten one in Spain and we were very far along the process in Portugal at the, yeah, it's not that fun.[00:10:00]
Geoff and Mac: It
Mac Martine: has not been very fun. I mean, some people hire lawyers to do it. We'd never did. Cause I felt like we're going to do all the real work of getting all the paperwork and all this stuff anyway. So it's really just like. Qualifying, I would say for most people, if you already work remotely, you know, generally speaking, qualify, you know, the income amounts that you're required are usually not terribly high.
And then you just, you read the bullet list of what you need and like, okay, sure, that's not hard. The problem is mainly just like. The process and like getting people like, prove your income is what they say. And you're like, okay, uh, how do you want me to do that? Okay. I'll send pay stubs or I'll send this and whatever you think proves it.
They're like, no. Okay. Well, what do you want? And they don't, they're just, I don't know, but that's not going to work. That kind of thing. And it's just all very slow. And the communication is slow and difficult. They've all worked out, but. But it's not a fun process.
Geoff Roberts: Is it mostly done digitally or are we talking like paper and pencil, mail
Mac Martine: [00:11:00] forms in?
No, no, none of that. But then there's other thing, I guess the other thing is just like very little of it is clear. For example, just like a very basic thing that I remember applying for the Croatian one is, well, you can apply before you go, like we can apply from the U. S. Or you can apply in Croatia. So if you applied before we were like, okay, well, but once it's accepted, is it automatically, does it kick in that day?
Because it's for, it was only good for a year and we're like, we can't have it kick in too soon because then we will have to leave it, but then it's like, okay, well, if we wait until we get to Croatia, what if they don't give it back to us in time before our tourist visa runs out, these kinds of things.
And just trying to get an answer to that is not simple. But then there's also like, we applied for the Spanish visa from Croatia. Yeah. But you can also do it from Spain. And if you do it, you know, remotely, it's, there's like different criteria than if you do it locally.
Geoff Roberts: Got
Mac Martine: it.
Geoff Roberts: Would you do it differently next time?
Or would you go through it the way that you did? [00:12:00]
Mac Martine: For us, a sort of requirement is that our kids go to a school for the year. So given that, I don't know that. We have much of the choice. I mean, there might be some countries where you can do it without having to get the visa, but no, I mean, I'd do it again.
It's not so it's like, it's just a pain in the ass. Fair enough. You know, it's not surmountable. It's, it's not in the end, it's more, it's more just frustrating. Understood. You know,
Geoff Roberts: so the, the next thing I really want to dig into is a topic near and dear to my heart, and I think something that you and I both share, which is.
We've done quite a bit of this travel while having families and my kids are four years or nine and 11 is that 10 12. Okay. So I, I think an interesting thing for me has been whether it's on Twitter or whether it's talking to actual friends of mine, the amount of pushback that I hear from other parents.
[00:13:00] About, I can't imagine traveling with kids. Our kids need stability. Our kids are young and they need a regular nap schedule. Basically parents that have given up on doing things that seem hard because they have kids and they feel like there are needs that those kids have that keep them from doing things that they want to do.
And my own experience has been. Overwhelmingly positive. I'm the first one to tell you, particularly traveling with kids as young as mine. There are hardships that come with that, but there's so many wonderful aspects of it too. And I think kids are way more adaptable than their parents often give them credit for, but your kids being older have a whole different set of considerations and problems and challenges than my kids do being younger.
In your own words, experience, like what are the pros and cons of traveling with, with kids that are of elementary school age or middle school age, like you're,
Mac Martine: this is tough because there's my [00:14:00] perspective. And then there's my kids perspective. I think they're not, our perspectives are not terribly different.
I mean, people of any age is simply, we have some friends from 2025 years ago that we've been close ever since. And, yeah. We moved away from that and there are kids grew up together and those bonds are very strong and the longer you're away, even with all of the FaceTime and all this stuff is amazing.
And it changes everything, including keeping in touch with parents and family and grandparents and all this stuff. It's. Cause you do feel like you're in the same room with them in a sense. But you're, you know, so I would say some of those long standing bonds and connections start to get a little looser.
Um, and that's the unfortunate part. That's honestly, at least as far as what jumps up into my mind right now, that's it, uh, and that, that is why we're going back the pros, I mean, everything. Like, I think just opening, opening your eyes. And the kids, mine too, for sure to the world. And [00:15:00] just like the world is a beautiful place and people all over the world are amazing.
And these places that sounded very scary to me are just unbelievably friendly and welcoming and warm and safer feeling than all, you know, and just being languages and cultures and just, you know, and also other shit that like. Like our kids are in school with, you know, well, Croatia, especially, but here are two kids that are from Ukraine and kids are from Russia, which is an unbelievable thing to me with what's going on in the world and seeing that, and then, and see how they, they interact and know that these people are fine together.
Oh man. And food and exposure to everything. And just getting out. This also relates to the sort of entrepreneur world of just like getting out of your comfort zone and going places. Again, might've sounded scary. Bosnia and Serbia, honestly, I hate to say it, but they sounded scary to me as an American because that's all I hear about is war from years ago and go there.
It's just unbelievable. So I don't know, [00:16:00] just exposure to everything. And just like, also something about just like, it sounds simple, but every day being different than the one before it. Whereas, you know, like when I left home and obviously no dig to people that choose to not do this, but it's like. When we left, I remember being like, yeah, we're going to leave for however many years and come back and all these people are going to be like, what have you been up to in the last five years, same thing.
No, no problem with it. But also just like every day is. Different, you know, I mean, that said, we do have a base, we have a routine. And so it, you know, there's a lot of tangents here we can go on, but as far as like the kids not having a routine, that's why part of why we've done the way done it the way we've done it.
And par partially because we also like our space and our day and our, we have careers and things, but we want our kids to be in school. And so by having them in a school for the whole year, they do have rhythm and stability and, and they, they are able to make new friends. They now have friends. In so many different countries.
It's awesome.
Geoff Roberts: That's very cool. Yeah. I think everyone talks about, you know, the exposure of [00:17:00] doing a trip and seeing all these cultures and languages and food and all that. And the part that gets discounted to me is the education that comes with that to me. Having had those experiences, that education is so much more valuable than 99 percent of what I was ever taught in a classroom.
And when I first started doing this with my kids, I used to say sort of jokingly, my motivation in doing so was by bringing the kids abroad at a young age, they would learn to be adaptable and roll with the punches and all of that. And that was kind of how I rationalized the fact that I sort of selfishly wanted to do this trip to myself.
But yeah, the more that we did it, the more it became very clear that they were getting benefits from all of these experiences. And it wasn't just me rationalizing this to myself. So
Mac Martine: it's great. I mean, the obvious ones are the language. The food and the cultural stuff, but in geography, you know, I mean, my kids have far surpassed me [00:18:00] now and they have mentioned countries I've never even heard of, they were like, say the West and where they want to go.
And they mentioned, I was like, where the hell is that? I've never heard of it. And they're like, yeah, I got to show you pictures. And they look, geez, but also like subtle things. There's, you know, may or may not like benefit you in life. I don't know. Very cool things where we, like I was sitting at a table at a restaurant the other day with my 12 year old.
And he was like, my dad, they're from Russia. They're speaking Russian. And then a minute later, that's Ukrainian because, because I guess Ukrainian and Russian are very similar, but there are certain things that are obviously different and he was able to pull that out. And I was like, that's cool. I don't know.
Absolutely. But yeah, just like, I wish I had, I should probably start writing down some of these examples, but it is, it's, you know, it's unbelievable what they kind of extract from it. And I think, I think way more than even the older, the parents do, the adults do, because they're just, it's also like. It stands out to them a lot more.
So, and also I'm going to toss out one more, which is my, my son now, like [00:19:00] he speaks sort of like his own language at home, which is like, it's like half Spanish words, it's half English words, Croatian words, and then words that he made up and we totally understand what he's saying and he does it sort of intent, just, you know, but it's really, I don't know, it's just, it's really cool.
I was like, man, I hope when you go home to your U S friends, you keep doing that expose them to this stuff.
Geoff Roberts: Yeah, I had a similar experience when we were last traveling, we were in Greece for an extended period of time. And my kids were three, which is, you know, the age when your brain is just a sponge when it comes to language.
And by the end of the couple months that we were there, the kids were picking up and speaking Greek to an extent that neither of their parents were. And we were just like, they literally learned all of this just by assimilation and just being in that environment. Like, we're not, you know, speaking the language to the extent that they are, but in a.
Three year old brain. It's amazing what they absorb. It really is. I want to talk a little bit about, you said one [00:20:00] of the sort of benefits was just every day is unique. Every day is different. And something that I have noticed a lot more of recently is. What I would call pushback on the whole idea of, of nomadism or digital nomadism.
And there's two forms. There's the form of, you know, you're moving into another country and displacing residents and, you know, making rents go up and all of that, that is less what I want to talk about more of what I want to talk about is this notion that nomadism is a form of escapism to some extent.
And I've seen a lot of people kind of rallying around. You're running away from something if you're constantly traveling and you constantly need a new environment and you're missing out on all the benefits of living in a tighter knit community where, you know, everybody, I think it's obvious, like any of these kind of polarizing topics, there's pros and cons to both, [00:21:00] but I would love to just kind of hear your, your thoughts on the whole topic of community versus traveling and, and, you know, what the perceived and real benefits of each are.
Mac Martine: So, I mean, I, I do think probably this is very individual. So I think there are some people that, you know, a lot of 20 somethings for sure that just like nomad constantly. And like, that's awesome. I, that isn't for me with kids. It doesn't mean, you know, and I, it's funny, I've had some people comment. On Twitter and elsewhere when, you know, if I post something about this and like, I can't believe you're doing that to your kids.
You're, I've just recently read a story. There was one, one, some person who said, I recently read a story. It was like from the kids of someone who parents did this to them and they just feel like they're destroyed, ruin them or something. And I was like, what's the story? And it was a story of like some dad who just like.
Took the kids out without their [00:22:00] will and like put them on a sailboat and they traveled the world for like 10 years or what, I don't know, something that's just like that still might be for some people, but that is not at all what our life is like. So while we've been to 13 countries, we have also done this intentionally with a base so that, as I mentioned, like there is a sense of stability.
And to, to me, this is what's worked beautifully for us to, to be able to have a rhythm and a stability and to be able to make friends. And still to be able to go to a bunch of places every break and weekends and all these summer for sure. And then, and do that, you know, we've done one year in one place and one year in another place.
And we hit now have friends from everyone. The kids have friends from everywhere. So, you know, again, I'm, I'm, I can only really speak from a personal perspective to us having that combination of like. We almost went to Morocco this weekend. We were all about to like, should we go one more trip before we head home?
But being able to just like do that and, but still have the stability worked well for us. My kids would say this has been unbelievable and they wouldn't give it up for anything. [00:23:00] That's cool. But I'm excited to go home and see my friends.
Geoff and Mac: Uh,
Geoff Roberts: yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me. I, I think, um, I think you were actually the first person I heard you use the term slow matting, uh, which I, which I love, which I think is, is so great.
And, uh, something I have recognized in myself, even when my wife and I first went on one of these extended trips ourselves. We didn't book or we booked very little in advance. We sort of, you know, blew around in the wind and went to all these different countries and relatively rapid succession and got a lot of mileage out of that.
And loved that schedule and that freedom and all those sorts of things. Once we had kids, we felt the need to stay every place that we went significantly longer. So there is a sense of. Community instability and all, all those sorts of things. I sort of thought that I would miss the freedom to completely blow in the wind and just stop and leave and [00:24:00] not plan anything ahead of time.
And there was an element of that, but I've found that maybe it's just me getting, getting older and maturing or being more lazy or something. But I I've actually found that I prefer the schedule of sort of slow matting, as opposed to this, just. All over the place schedule and part of the enjoyment for me, much more so is putting down roots in a place, even if it's just for a month or two and sort of being embedded in that community yet abroad for a significant period of time and getting to meet the people and getting to, to know the area is so much more fulfilling than, you know, just dropping in for a weekend, seeing the sites and then going somewhere new.
Thank you.
Mac Martine: No, I don't like doing that anymore and being able to, I mean, we still do sometimes, you know, but yeah, I mean, to be able to just like settle in and absorb it and also not feel like you're in a rush. It's like, I don't need to, I don't want to feel like I go to meet and see all this like foresight today or [00:25:00] whatever it is, but like.
Yeah. Yeah. We can still go home and take a nap if we want or whatever, and like take our time and not feel like we need to rush around and just really get to feel it. And like, we've been in, I'm in Valencia, Spain right now, and we've been here, I don't know, nine or 10 months. And I feel like just now figuring it out in the sense of like, you know, finding like the cool hole in the wall restaurants that the locals go to, or.
You know how to shop properly at the outdoor market, food markets and you know, whatever. Yeah. I was just, it takes. And getting, I can hear the rhythm is totally different. It's, you know, they're out late and they eat late and the meal schedules are different. They have four meals, really. It was just everything.
There's like, kids are up really late. The kids are up till midnight and the morning starts very slowly. There's all that kind of stuff. It like, it takes a while to like, not even just recognize it, but like. Flow with it, you know, so
Geoff Roberts: and realize that it can be okay and your kids don't need to be on this like rigid schedule that [00:26:00] they were on at home and in Oregon, because that's what they're used to.
I think it comes comes back to this adaptability and. The other point I love that you made is it's such a, this community versus traveling or nomadism thing is, it's such a personal thing. I think that's what's being missed in the discourse for me. Just this last week, I traveled by myself for the first time in four years.
I was in Hawaii for a week alone, no kids, nothing. And I just realized while I was doing that, something I I've recognized before, but I felt it acutely last week, which was. When I am traveling, when I am exploring a new place, all of the best attributes of my personality come out like it, it makes me a better person.
I'm not only happier, but I'm more inquisitive. I'm trying to meet new people. I'm trying to embrace whatever culture is there. Like, I feel a market [00:27:00] improvement in my day to day life. Well, being an excitement and happiness, and that is not to say that when I'm at home in California, I live in San Diego.
Most of the time things are bad and I'm unhappy and I'm malcontent by by any stretch of the imagination. I have a wonderful life here, too. But to me, the sort of day to day, always being the same. Isn't as fulfilling the, the variety that comes from the, the travel and moving around and seeing new places is something that genuinely enriches my life.
And I think there's people are the opposite is true. They need to feel, you know, plugged into their local community and know everybody and, and that kind of thing. And that, that's totally okay. Either way.
Mac Martine: But as you stay places longer, I don't even, it doesn't even have to be a year. I don't think, but like you start to have these different groups.
I love seeing my kids with their, like, Oh, I'm on my, like. It's my Croatia school chat still, you know, in our, I'm on this chat or I'm in on with my friends in Hawaii [00:28:00] or I'm cool, but there's a couple other things I want to say, which is which one is related to the instability, whatever concern, like the, the bond, the, the, the sort of bond that happens with the family, like we've got our grace, we've got our issues as a family, but like the, the bond that happens is going through all this stuff, all these places together and.
And without those friends and it actually, we've had a lot of friends come to visit us, which is an amazing thing. It gets a lot of people. It's a great speech for people who wouldn't otherwise travel or to those places to come visit. So we've had a lot of family and friends come, but it has just been very like a great bonding experience.
And we're the only ones that have all these experiences together. Right. And there's a lot of them. And the other thing that I think is really important, I've really noticed the thing that's been the most valuable to our kids. Is not as much what we do if they feel included in the conversation. This has been like really enlightening [00:29:00] to me because for example, like when we were going to Croatia, we just tossed it out there.
I mean, that, this was obviously kind of new to them, new to all of us, but they're like, okay, cool. That's sounds good. And they were like, On board. And then there'd be a second where they'd question it. And then their friend would be like, that sounds awesome. And they'd be like, yeah, it's going to be awesome.
And then, you know, they'd be all for it again. And then when we were, um, deciding after Croatia, if what we should do, it was really, I mean, we had been talking about it a bit, but there was like a point where like, we need to decide. So we just started walking all of us and we went, we just walked through a bunch of neighborhoods.
We sat and got pizza and the whole day it was like talking about what we're going to do. And everyone got to give their, cause there were a couple of us were on the fence. And so it was sort of this big family conversation. And I think both the boys were. On the no side when we started the walk, but one could think that we persuaded them or something.
I, we really did our best to like, just try to say reasons why we thought, and in the end they said, okay, we want to [00:30:00] go. And we literally weren't going to go if they both said no. And then again, a few months ago, we could tell that they were a little anxious about what was going to happen next. And they expressed, you know, they said, our biggest concern is that you're just going to drag us somewhere.
We don't want to go. And we're like, we wouldn't do that from our perspective. We're like, we feel like we've included you in the conversation all the time, but whatever, we just need to like make them feel included now. And so we sat them down at dinner and we said, look, guys, it's up to you what we do next year.
We can stay here in Valencia. We can go somewhere, anywhere you choose, assuming we can figure it out how to go there. Or we can go home. And so they've thought about it and they decided to go home, but they were just like, what was really fascinating to me and enlightening was that they said they really prefer doing what we've been doing, but they've missed some of their friends at home because they each want, it's really one friend in particular for both of them, they each had like a best friend at home and I was like, what if those guys could come join us?
They're like, keep going in a heartbeat. Let's stay, let's keep going, [00:31:00] go somewhere else. So that was really powerful to me too. Right. And so. I actually view that as like, wow, that's like a huge testament to the power of their lifelong friends that doesn't speak to me negatively about what we've been doing.
It's more about, wow, that's awesome that they've got these friends that they've known since they were born that they really love and want to go see. That's for
Geoff Roberts: sure. And I think a lot of people would hear that and say, Oh, you know, the kids said they wanted to go home after two years, but that doesn't mean that's the wrong move.
That means they had two amazing years creating experiences and memories in the context of your family that they never would have had otherwise. And they just got to a point where now the thing that they want to do is go home and see those friends and return to a little bit of their previous lives.
And maybe you do this again at some point in the future too. Who, who knows?
Geoff and Mac: Yeah.
Mac Martine: They said last night, one of them was like, Oh, we're not done. We've got a lot more traveling to do, but we're going to go live at home for a while. That's funny.
Geoff Roberts: My, my kids, our condo is painted blue. So they refer to it as blue [00:32:00] house.
And every time we travel, they, they pick up some attribute of the new houses where we're staying in. So there's like stone house and beach house and red house, then they, they label them all. But after our last trip, they, towards the end, we're asking us, they're like, when are we going back to blue house?
We miss blue house. So that's cute. That's awesome.
Mac Martine: And it's nice to want to go home. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, it doesn't have to be viewed as a negative thing. It's great.
Geoff Roberts: So let's talk about, let's talk about going home. You've been doing this for, you know, two years. I can tell just from the limited conversations we've had that this experience has contributed massively to your, your own life and happiness and interest and what we call life podcast.
As you kind of reflect on the last two years. What is your overarching emotion? Do you have things in particular that excites you about going home? Do you worry that you're going to have sort of a feeling of let down when you get home, where are [00:33:00] you at emotionally with the whole going back home thing?
Mac Martine: All of it, all of it. I can find things to get excited about, but I think if it were just up to us, we wouldn't be going back quite yet. Okay. At the same time, like I said, we got great friends there. I'm really excited. A lot of them have come to see us, so it's cool, but I'm excited to be around them again.
We already have a bunch of camping trips and things planned with them for the summer when we get back. I mean, I'm also, I can get a little excited about the only English speaking country we've been to in the last two years was England. And so it'll be a little nice to, to have just like the convenience of everyone speaking the same language for a minute.
Yeah. But I don't know, man. I love the simplicity we have here. And my wife and I keep trying to talk about like how we can kind of transport that. We're just like in this small, but nice three bedroom apartment. And I've been the old town of Valencia. We're not responsible for anything. We don't have a car.
The simplicity of it in the home, we've got the house, which is awesome, but it's also all these other things that come with it. And sure. [00:34:00] I'm going to have to buy a car again and
Geoff and Mac: I don't
Mac Martine: know what I'd have to get a car. So I don't know. I'm getting excited because we're doing it and it doesn't make sense to not find a way to get excited, but it'll be, it'll be different.
I am curious to see, as I mentioned, the state of Portland was kind of a mess when we left and I. I'm curious to see how it is now. I mean, I get reports, but I'm curious to see how my kids react to it. Because as I mentioned, they were really excited to get away from not the city and not their friends, but the ongoings of things that were kind of happening around us.
So I really hope that doesn't have recurring sort of negative effects on them that it sort of did seem to have when we were there.
Geoff Roberts: Yeah, I, I can't, I can't speak to, to Portland by any extent, but man, I'm not excited for the, uh, end of this year in the United States with the election and all of that. It's just going to
Mac Martine: be a night that.
I know. I feel like we were gone in that sense. We were gone. Like the worst bearded,
Geoff Roberts: [00:35:00] what did you do with your house while you were gone? Did you just have like a property manager check in on it from time to time? Did you rent it? What did,
Mac Martine: yeah, so we kept all our stuff in it. Well, we got rid of a ton of stuff, which was awesome.
So we kept the place furnished, anything like extra that was personal or whatever clothes we put in closets, a couple of closets and locked them. So that shows we didn't have a lot of extra stuff anymore. And then we rented it on Airbnb, it's being rented on Airbnb through a property manager and it's 30 days plus.
So I guess, I don't know if this is everywhere, but we did, we did have to get some special permits for the short term. So it's, it's, it's worked out fine. It's mostly been filled and generally low effort from us to, to do much with it.
Geoff Roberts: Awesome. All right. Final thing. Some just kind of a more fun oriented stuff at this point, just based on your, your travels.
Give me one or two sort of cultural events, [00:36:00] experiences, et cetera, that you, you had over the course of the last two years that are just like memories that stand out in your mind.
Mac Martine: Cultural experiences.
Geoff Roberts: It could be anything. I know you went to like a Taylor Swift concert and in Spain the other day. I mean,
Mac Martine: we did do that.
Yes. My wife bought tickets to Taylor Swift in Madrid. And so we hopped on a train like the next day, went up there and it was, I mean, that was. Yeah. You know, I think we all, at least the people in my family think our music is fine is more just about like, my wife is obsessed with her level of fame. And it's like, Holy shit, this is unbelievable.
She like runs the world. We have to go see what's going on. It was, it was unbelievable. Just like the sight of the whole thing. I don't know. I'll say, I think one of the things that surprised us the most and just blew our minds was Sarajevo, we went not knowing all that much and, you know, Just showed up and it was just so beautiful and culturally amazing.
Just like [00:37:00] different, you know, religions like meshing together and got like Turkish influence and all these things. But also I think most powerfully was just there sort of the phrase I use is sort of preservation of the war from the nineties. And there's still just all kinds of remnants of. The war that they have intentionally kept to not forget it and interesting.
It's somehow very beautiful, even though it's very awful. And just families with little museums where they just go in there and it's like one person running it as free. You go in and they just don't talk. They're just like, you know, it's, it's not a happy place to be, but it's just so powerful. And they have what they call the Sarajevo Rose, which is anywhere in the sidewalk or the street.
I think it's something like where three or more people were killed in any spot. There's still like the mortar, like did it, whatever in the sidewalk. And so they fill it with like a red resin and just so powerful, really powerful and beautiful. And like that people's backyards filled with creative stones [00:38:00] of their family from all like ending 1992, 1994.
Geoff and Mac: Um,
Mac Martine: so I don't know, that just really stood out, you know, it sounds like really depressing and it is, but it's also just beautiful and powerful. So that's a heavy one.
Geoff Roberts: Yeah. Something, something lighter. How about, how about culinary pleasures? Any particular food you've come across or just things that stand out from a culinary perspective?
Mac Martine: Yeah, the things that are standing out right now are just the Spanish tapas. Well, actually there's another one. So the Spanish tapas, because I mean, I liked them even before we got here, but I've like kind of figured it out more, you know, like where to go and what, where the good ones are and what to get and kind of.
When to have it and all this stuff. But also we went up to San Sebastian a few weeks ago, which is North Northern Spain up on the coast. And we had a recommendation from someone here who had hired this woman. This isn't something we normally would have done. We were hesitant. We're like the, the review from these friends of ours were so great that we were like, let's [00:39:00] try it.
So we hired this woman who's from there. And first of all, we got there, it was beautiful for the four days or whatever, that we were there. And apparently it rains a lot. But we hired this woman for like half a day and we pay her. And then she takes us to all these Pinchot places, which are, they're like little, like on little, they're all different things, but like, sort of like tapas, but.
She just took us from one place to another, to another, to another, knowing all the best places and places like Anthony Bourdain's favorite places and things like this. And she did it in this like amazing way that like she knows all the people there and she does this. And so she would, there's always be a table waiting for us, even though the place is packed, but there was no effort on her part.
We just show up just at the right time and she'd have the table. She'd go in. She'd say, okay, this place is best for this and this and this. And she'd, we were just like, it pushed us like stuff that we would not normally order, but we were saying, do it all of it. And it was unbelievable. It was unbelievable.
And we went to, I don't know, five or six places and [00:40:00] it was, it was amazing. Your reaction
Geoff Roberts: says it all for people that can see the video here.
Mac Martine: Something that there's, it's fun to kind of explore and just pick a place and go in and check it out. But there's something about having this woman just like knows where to go and knows what to get.
And. But yeah, it's like pushing this a little out of our comfort zone with some of the food. And we didn't regret any of it. Yeah. All
Geoff Roberts: right. I got two more for you. Let's say you get it back in a couple of weeks. A year from today, you can instantly be transported to one of the places that you visited just for 24 hours.
Where, where do you want to be transported?
Mac Martine: Cortula, Croatia, the islands out there, just unbelievable swimming and just beauty. Awesome. That's it. Sorry, I want to say I have one of my tweets, a number of viral tweets that we're about. Nomadic with kids. And actually a lot of them, most of them go do a lot.
One of them went crazy. It has like over a million views. And it was a picture of [00:41:00] one of my kids on Cortula where they have all it's very, it's rocky. They don't have sandy beaches. It's rocky, which sounds uncomfortable, but it's actually quite nice once you get used to it. And there was a spot that had, someone had put a diving board over on a rock over the most amazing water.
And it was a picture of my son, like 10 feet in the air over the diving board, like flying through the air. That was Cordula and it's, I'll never forget it.
Geoff Roberts: Awesome. Final, final question. This is the closest thing to a recurring segment. We have on this podcast so far, but I want you to pull us into your day to day.
This podcast is called life profits. Ultimately, what we're trying to do is sort of inspire people to use entrepreneurship to. Fuel their lives and build more enriched lives, like paint me a picture of a great day in your life over the course of the last two years. Like, what, what does that, what do you do in that day?
What does that day look like? What does that day feel like? That is [00:42:00] a fulfilling day for you and your life.
Mac Martine: My mind immediately goes to sort of to. Areas. And one is like, we're somewhere new and I'm not really doing any kind of work or anything or yeah. Remember, and then there's the day where it's like kids go to school and I have that kind of day.
And so those are sort of my two categories of my day. So, I mean, I think the, the one where I'm not intentionally doing any work or, you know, that's not, it's not a priority. I mean, those are probably what you'd expect. We kind of wake up and go to the local place and have coffee and find a site. As we talked about, like we go places usually for long enough that we don't have to be really like get a million things done.
And so we tried to like pick. One goal for the day. And it doesn't mean really sitting around the rest of the day, but it's like, Oh, we're going to go to this castle or otherwise just kind of wander around and find some good food back to the, like, we don't ever think, you know, it's like we go somewhere and we're like, what are the like one or two things that we have to see?
Otherwise we just like to explore and just like get lost. That's like, so I would say that is like going somewhere, just getting [00:43:00] lost. I love it. And that's the way we, we mainly explore places just by getting lost as far as like my day, like a day, like today. Where my kids went to school, I've been fortunate enough, I think, to sort of be able to run with my inspiration most of the time, most of the time, which is like, like last week I worked my ass off for me.
You know, it's like I worked a bunch of hours. It doesn't mean I'm working 12 hour days by any means. It means like I worked most of the time while my kids were at school and other days, like past couple of days, I was like, man, I'm feeling really like, like I need to kind of recharge. I'm going to hang out with friends.
Walked around a lot, go to the park, go for a run. And so I think just letting myself do that, like letting myself like stay up really late some night, if I'm really cranking on something and having a good time or not doing anything work wise that day, if I feel like I'll be better off just like taking a rest.
So I don't know, I don't know if that answers your question, but like, that's sort of my, my routine is like letting myself do what it wants to do. [00:44:00] Because I'm able to do that because I love my work and I love what I do. I don't have the fear of, I'm not going to do anything. So I don't, it's not that I love what I do.
It's just, I have like big power streaks and crank kind of stuff. And then it was like, Oh, that was a lot. I need this recharge. Makes sense.
Geoff Roberts: That's what, that's my system. I have one, one final question sort of based on that. One of the things that I. I don't want to say I'm concerned with, but one of the things I want to really kind of push on with this podcast is I don't want people to listen to this and just say, you know, you had a bunch of guests who have had exits or financial success and then have sort of changed their lives as a result.
If you could go back, having had the experiences that you've had and like, say something to your younger self about. This integration of life and work and how they should work in tandem and sort of encourage yourself to not wait for [00:45:00] retirement, not wait until you're a financial success to sort of prioritize these things.
Like, what would your message be, even if it like for your kids, what would your message to them be on this topic?
Mac Martine: Yeah. I mean, first off I do not buy into the, I mean, obviously I guess, but like, do not buy into like save for retirement and then go do all this stuff. It's, I don't, it normally works that way.
I mean, it can, but I am aware of the fact that it seems like, Oh yeah, this exit is like my exit was good. And again, I don't know how to put it. Like certainly helped, but it's not like I'm done. Like I have to work. But it made it more comfortable. It made it more comfortable to be able to say, Oh, let's take this risk.
Even though what I recognized after very quickly is like, it's not as hard as it seems in the sense of like we saved money when we just actually, let me put it this way. I don't, I haven't been keeping track lately, but the first year we were actually spending the same amount every month, including all the travel we were doing.
As we would spend your
Geoff Roberts: regular life. And so,
Mac Martine: [00:46:00] and we were, we'd been to a lot of places. So we, you know, it is not as expensive as it sounds, or it doesn't have to be. I would have done it sooner. I think, I don't know, my, again, another personal thing, you've done this with younger kids than what I'm about to say, but like for us, I feel like if I were to go back, like sort of like the out of diapers, five, four somewhere would probably be where I would like start to do something like this.
And it would have been easier in some senses, you know, especially before like. School and they'd pick up the language faster. And so I think that my big takeaway is yes, I'm aware that the exit makes it sound like it was no problem, but I actually made it more comfortable and I realized, like, I think a lot of the excuses, as you said, I would say are either really, it means I don't want to do this and here are my reasons why, but it is doable
Geoff and Mac: and especially
Mac Martine: again, if you already work remotely, like then that type of thing.
Sure. Some people have, like, if you're making sales calls all day and you go to nine hour, different time zone or something. Sure. But [00:47:00] a lot of the reasons why we say it's not doable with kids is true. Well, worse where you can overcome them. You know, like we had a dog, like somebody like, Oh, well, we can't leave our dog.
Well, we left her dog, you know? Yep.
Geoff Roberts: If there's a, if there's a will, there's a way. And I think. To your point, doing such things is far more accessible than many people give it credit for at first blush. My experiences in terms of costs have been very much the same. It's been almost exactly equivalent what my life here in California, which is quite expensive costs as opposed to living abroad and folding in the travel expenses and whatnot.
So, Yeah, definitely hoping to encourage more people to cut the excuses. If this is the type of thing they're serious about doing. I hope
Mac Martine: so. And you know, you can test it over a summer break or ways to test it. But I also think it's like, it's reversible if you really get out there and need it or whatever, some people do, some people don't like it.
And I actually think, you [00:48:00] know, one other thing I do see is like, At least doing it in the way that we've done it, which is go somewhere for a year, put the kids in school. It was like, some people like ship furniture, buy an empty place and like have to buy all the furniture and beds and all this stuff.
And then now, like, we know some people who did that and are now deciding to go back after one year. And so they have to like resell all this cars. Like, God, that's like really complicating it. You know, buying a car and all this stuff is, you can do it simply. Like we, we all came here. We each had one bag plus a little backpack.
It doesn't have to be. Super complicated.
Geoff Roberts: Cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on and being one of our first guests and sharing your experiences. I'm very happy we had the opportunity to chat and I hope people get a lot out of this conversation.
Mac Martine: Thank you for having me. I hope after some number of these, we can have like a meetup of everyone that's been on and we can all, that would be fun.
That would be really cool. We should definitely do that.
Geoff Roberts: Awesome. I appreciate it, man. And in talking to [00:49:00] Mac, I could just feel the excitement and the gratitude that he had for the life he's been able to live while living abroad with his family over the past two years. So to end this episode, I want to leave you.
With a simple question, I see so many parents sort of defaulting to the assumption that they can't do things because they have kids at home. They have young families. So to what extent is that a limiting belief in your life? Are you using the fact that you have a family as an excuse not to pursue the things that you might want to?
Otherwise, that's it for this week.